Maybe things look fine on the outside, but on the  inside something feels off. And now you look back and wonder, "How did I even get here? When did  I make these choices? And is this actually the life that I want for myself?" Hey, it's Luca  and welcome to The Luca Savazzi Podcast. So many capable people experience this feeling of  disconnection between who they are and what they know they're capable of. It's like somewhere  along the way they slowly drifted away from themselves and didn't even realize it was  happening. So the question is, how do capable, intelligent, well-meaning people slowly lose  touch with who they are and what matters to them? And more importantly, how do you find  your way back? If this sounds like you, don't go anywhere because today we are talking about  the six most common ways that people drift away from themselves and how to find your way back.  I'm excited to introduce today's guest to you, Marina Palmarini. She's a transformational guide  and a healing facilitator. After navigating her own journey through emotional pain, disconnection  and profound inner change, she now supports others in remembering who they are beneath the noise of  conditioning, and fear. She's also the author of the book Dancing with Life: A Journey Back  to Yourself. Her approach is a blend of rapid transformational therapy, subconscious  reprogramming, trauma and emotional healing, energy work, and spiritual integration. She offers  transformation for mind, body, and soul. Please help me welcome to the Luca Savati podcast, Marina  Palmarini. Hey, Marina. How are you? I'm really good, Luca. Thank you for having me. How are you  doing today? I'm doing fine. I'm so excited to   have you on the on the podcast because we've been  talking about this for quite some time. But before we go into that, if someone is listening to this  conversation already and they feel unfulfilled, maybe they feel disconnected, frustrated because  there's a gap between where they are and where they want to be in life. What becomes possible if  they take to heart everything that we talk about in this conversation? Yeah. Well, great questions.  I believe two important things very practical would become possible for them. The first is  to understand why they are experiencing that drifting that feeling stuck and disconnected.  It's very important to understand what are the forces in places and two what they can actually  do like technically we would provide tools not only understanding but things that everyone can  do based on their own situation because we make it very specific little things that they can  start doing today to really take that step back and to return to themsel and eventually a life of  purpose fulfillment and um of fullness. What does drifting actually mean? How do you know when  you're experiencing it? We start drifting and losing that sense of alignment with our unique  authentic self when inside of us there is a sense of not coherence, not with our identity.  Imagine is a little container when we feel, what we think about us, how we act. There needs to be a  coherence. When there is that sense of coherence, I have an identity, strong sense of self. I am  in alignment. I think I want to do something. I act based on what I want to do. Right? So that's  I'm in alignment. Drifting means that for some reason we're going to talk about that that sense  of clearance start disappearing and we disconnect from that sense of self and then we go through  different direction unconsciously until at some point we wake up and we feel lost. So what you're  saying is when you're in alignment your thoughts and your actions they are coherent. So if I for  example being in alignment I think I I'm looking for a relationship. So I do I want to love and I  want to receive love and I feel that I um deserve love and I act upon that. Like when I am in a  relationship, I want to be so I don't disappear. I don't feel bad like I really go through it  and I want to have a relationship. So this is I'm in alignment. I think I believe I want it. I  act upon it. I deserve it and I want to be in a relationship. The relationship go wrong for many  reason. But you know I am in alignment. Not being alignment means that in my mind I want to be in  a relationship. I want to give that love but for some experience I had in my past which we can talk  about later my body for example in my body I don't feel safe of receiving love I don't feel safe in a  relationship but that can show up in many way so I want love somehow I can't have that relationship  that I feel I want to have and that's because inside of us there is not this alignment and So  right for us to experience that relationship with working back and understand what happens to me  because I am experiencing that. But sometimes um you go through a moment in life where you want  something but you know it's just not attainable. It's just not working. How is that different? Or  is it different from being misaligned? Or could it just be a moment in life that you're experiencing  something that's not working? Could be both. Not all of us are misaligned. Obviously, um, finding  a new job or a new relationship is challenging. What I think the difference is in the level of  awareness that we can bring into the moment when we ask ourself why is not working. So always  start from the experience that you're having and check in with yourself. Do you see repeating  patterns? For example, I find someone I got I find I follow in love straight away. Everything  goes well and then maybe we the other person uh push away or maybe I feel I want to push away. So  you need to find patterns. Repeating patterns are a signal that actually you probably are acting in  a way that instead of attracting the relationship somehow you're pushing away. And it sounds to  me like what you're saying is that you think in your mind you want something but subconsciously  you're rejecting it. Yeah. So these two forces are not you know they're not unified into wanting that  relationship. one part wants it the conscious mind and the unconscious is maybe pushing it away which  is why you need awareness. Yeah. Do you touch upon such an important point because uh it's not that  your unconscious conscious mind doesn't want it. There is a belief there that I learned at some  point in my life that make something and makes me believe that I want but love is not available to  me and they say we are not conscious about that. So if I believe that something is not available  for me because the subconscious mind actually um is the it's like 95 I think 90% of whatever  we exuded the other word is driven by the subconscious mind. So those belief always take  over until we become conscious about them and we refrain them. Which brings us to the fact that  awareness and you know challenging those beliefs or at least acknowledging what those beliefs  are, understanding them and trying to figure   out if they're true is a very important part of  questioning that. And I say also awareness. Why awareness is important? You cannot fix what you  don't understand. Once you understand something, you're already 50% ahead to fix it. That's what  this conversation is about, understanding the type of drift and how to get back from it. And now  I'm really interested because you've helped a lot of people um experiencing how it is to come back  from that drift. And so you've you've recognized six types of drift. Yeah. So in order to identify  the six drift we need to and I like to say this because soon whoever is listening they will be  able to identify themsself one or more than them. So that's why I think it's very important you can  have more than one drift. Yeah, you can have more but there's always one that this moment of life is  more predominant but you can have more like we are human right this framework Luca is to help people  to understand ultimately you know we are way more complex than that right so imagine a cross so  in the middle in the intersection there is you aligned perfect just born you are there on the top  of the of the cross there is the outside forces on the bottom the inside and then on the horizontal  right on the left side we have the here like the horizontal line what it stands for is what God  lost some of us we never lost anything we just lost direction we we know we are and what we are  capable of for some reason we just are lost and we don't know where to want where to go but for some  matter we lose direction because actually we lost identity for some reason a moment in our life we  never got the chance to really know we really are what we like and I would talk about that so that's  the true forces right the mechanism in play was it something outside or something inside okay  now that I understand that okay for me it was something outside okay but then I did I lost just  direction or did I lose identity and those six categories fall in those four quadrant. Now I'm  curious how do you know where you are? So maybe let's start with the first type of drift. How does  it feel to be there? How do you get there? Let's start with the first one. Okay. So let's introduce  one of our six uh drifting. Uh this is the one as you just mentioned is called the pleaser or we  could use the people pleaser right someone that is living someone else life. So this person uh this  type of drift is on the top left of the quadrant and basically the forcing play is an external  forces force. So something happened outside of them and what they really lost is a sense of  direction. So let's say who is the pleaser? So the pleaser is someone that at some point in life  from some point they never actually trained the choosing muscles because for example they didn't  they learned that disappointing parents, the caregivers, teacher whatever would make them not  feel loved, accepted. Right? When you are a child, you need to feel loved and accepted to survive.  So at some point kind of also late in life, not very early, but they learned that they had  a sense of self. They knew they won. They were being this a wonderful kid, but they had to start  shutting down because they learned that they were upsetting someone by being themsel, right? And so  they believe that not stepping up for themselves, making place for other people, making yourself  smaller, shrinking, they believe that is how you protect yourself. Yeah, it's it's a protect. All  this drift are protective mechanism. Very very smart at the end of the day. There's nothing wrong  with that. But there are protective mechanism.   At some point your mind learned that you need to  be loved, accepted, wanted and you need to you know change something in you to have this survival  things and for the pleaser that what happened for example I can go a little bit more into details uh  it was a loss a little bit but me right I always um had to make for example or if you're a kid  you need to make your mom happy or your son or not because your mom is bad And maybe you feel  that you get this sense of reward and appreciation if you are this perfect kid or if you do certain  things you go to certain school. So what you're learning say okay then my mom my dad or whoever  they only love me it's not true but as a kid that's what you learn they only love me if I make  them happy and those are the things that make them happy but what's the signal for them to know that  they are really not fulfilling in the purpose they don't feel when they achieve something they feel  flat because they are living someone else the dream what do you mean living what do you mean by  that yeah let's say for example all I go into law school and I become a lawyer because I think that  my parents love me if I have this career so I want to do something else but I cannot accept upset  them or it could be under really small decision so finally you know I am a lawyer finally I'm  working this amazing fur everyone thinks oh my god you should be so happy yeah I'm happy but  inside feels like flat you don't feel the sense of you know fulfillment you always feels like  there's something is missing in my life, right? You keep wondering, wondering what is the sense  of emptiness. It's because you are living someone else's dream. You're very good at it. Doesn't mean  that you don't have to do. But maybe if you had the courage to say no and to be to say, okay, if  you don't accept him, it's fine. If you don't love me, it's fine. I actually like to do something  else and I do it. Probably he would be doing something else right now. For someone who is used  in being a people pleaser, living someone else's life, not making choices, it's pretty hard to  start um getting back to yourself and making those choices. Yeah. So, how do you do that? Yeah, it  is very hard. But there are little things that you can start doing right now. And I did this myself  and it really works. Um first things whenever you are in front of a decision and a choice that you  have to make like either someone is asking do you   want to go out or do you don't want to go out do  you want to take this trip to South Africa or to Finland right a people pleaser be to not upset  that friend to feel that they can still be in a relationship that friend probably will still love  them but you know the default mechanis upset them even if they deep down they want to go to Finland  they will say oh let's go to South Africa right so the first thing that this person can do whenever  like a half second before they make then decision they bring the awareness to that half second  before you speak and really inside of you just check in no judgment don't force yourself you need  to train the muscles right don't force yourself still going to be difficult to make a decision  right but just check in and start bringing the awareness and you will start training the muscles  and say well actually that is what I like that is what I don't want to do first thing second thing  that's more difficult but it's so much needed if they want to make changes in their life start  saying no practice saying no that doesn't work for me it's the most difficult thing but saying  no to others is saying yes to ourself and saying yes to ourself self is bring back coherence and  go back to who we really want are right it's difficult it's difficult especially if if this  is what you're used to if you grew up like always saying yes saying no is very difficult and I know  from my experience that saying no at the beginning felt like super difficult because you know that  you are going to disappoint someone that's what you think at least um so I learned to say Yes,  with conditions. So, I learned to have that pause and say, "Yes, I can do it, but um I won't be able  to finish that other project or yes, I can do it, but maybe next time we can do something else."  So, at least you start putting in your Yeah. your   first opinions. Very good. And take it from there.  Very good. I mean, I think everyone will find at the end their own way to cope, their own strategy.  There's not a fixed ropes for everyone. So, yeah. So the people pleaser pause before you react.  That's what you're saying. And then start saying no. Yeah. And start finding something really  practice things that you like and really ask yourself, do I like it or I am about to do these  things because I really enjoy it or because I'm conditioned by. Right? Those are the three things  very similar, very very powerful. Which brings us to the beginning of the conversation where we  talked about the beliefs and how you have to you   know challenge those beliefs. Yeah. Once you  start saying no and you see that other people accept it and don't stop loving you and you know  life goes on even if you say no. Yeah. Then you can start challenging your beliefs. Okay. Can I  push this further? Absolutely. Always challenge your belief. Talk to your mind. Is that really  true? No. Which brings us to the second type of drifting. Yeah. So the second type of briefing. So  let's remain on the same quadrant. The survivor. So what happened to this person? So the survivor  is somewhere at some point in their life went into coping mechanism and never stopped. Example. So  something you were having like your life you are uh you have your passion you want to become  a musicians or maybe you know you're playing   you're signing like a life everything is going  well and it's your dream your passion feels like you're talking about me oh wow good go let let's  see you let's see really interesting so you're very passionate you know who you are you know what  your passion you had your dreams and but something happened like it's more something dramatic IC  for example um maybe you there could be a loss financial loss maybe you lose a parent or maybe  all of a sudden you need to relocate to another country so you cannot do the same things for  example um again I want to be a musician it means that for many years probably you need to live with  your parents they will pay for your school and so   that you can well follow your dreams well let's  imagine I lost my parents or something really bad happened and I had to put everything aside and I  had to find a job, pay my bills or maybe I am in a beautiful relationship but I'm very young and all  of a sudden we're expecting a baby, right? So I I have to go I have to push aside something. There's  nothing wrong with that but there's something so meaningful important sometimes also dramatic that  is happening. So I had to put aside everything that I was making me feel alive to pursue another  direction. Could it also be that and I'm taking myself an example again? Yeah. Um I grew up  loving acting, music, doing the stuff that I love, being really focused on, you know, achieving  my goals and and getting where I wanted to go. Um and that worked like for a very long time for  me. And then there was the pandemic like in 2020 we had COVID which forced me because the business  shut down there were no acting jobs anymore there all these things happened that we all know  about which forced me to get a job to get you know because I had to pay the bills you have your  mortgage you have your stuff and I felt like sure it was okay to do that job and I enjoyed doing it  but it wasn't my passion y and it was a way to you know go through that moment of disruption. Yeah,  100%. That's a perfect example, right? It doesn't need most of the time it is dramatic but it does  need to be. Uh so yeah and uh for these type of people the way they recognize they are in this  category is because sometimes for example well I am assuming in your case now you're back to  you know to be an actor etc. But let's imagine was not the case. Most likely you would say well  I used to be such a great actor. I used to do I used to. So the these people they remember that  there was a moment on their life when something happened big or small and the drift right. So they  remember but the point is that in their present like let's let's say that reminder that we are  talking to someone that right now they're feeling   stuck unfulfilled. So in this moment of their life  something is awakening they can see that something happened but they're still acting as the the the  issue is still happening right and somehow because maybe they have been living this uh surrogate life  for so long somehow they either they say well it was so long ago that I was a musician now I have  a family I have so it's very difficult in the day life. It feels like giving up almost like you  gave up on your dreams. Yeah. Yeah. You gave up on your dream dreams. But what they have to do with  the first things um bring awareness and actually reframe your mind and acknowledge that what you  did was actually something that was saving you. What do you mean? Right. In the sense that you  saving like you as you mentioned with your example you had to find a job because you had somehow save  yourself otherwise you wouldn't like save it's a big word right but without the job you could have  not sustain yourself in your lifestyle like even if nothing bad would have happened right but you  made that conscious decisions and let's assume that you're still in that job stuck but right now  the pandemic is over the you can still go back to acting but somehow we're now yeah but does it is  it worth it I had to start again from scratch I actually now I make a lot make good money maybe  the other one it's I don't know so you're stuck there isn't decision in there right what obviously  you need to make the jump right but what we are talking here today is like how do I see myself  in here so let's acknowledge that there's nothing wrong with you it was very courageous of you  to stop doing something you're passionate about and to adjust to continue living. But tell tell  yourself that right now that situation is over. And and and what you're saying makes total sense  and and I kind of feel like this relief cuz I did make that choice from a place where I knew I  needed to survive. So I did become that survivor. The thing is that if you stay stuck after  you acknowledge that this is not who you are, where you want to be, you mentioned something  like really interesting. Um, you have to get out of comfort. It's about taking that decision.  And unless you don't take that decision, this is where you're going to stay stuck. Yeah. Yeah. But  there are little step that little very simple step that they can actually do because before you make  that jump you want to prepare. So for example try to remember really well what actually made you  passionate like let's imagine we are talking about someone that maybe disconnected from their dream  and passion like 10 years ago right so probably they even forgot about it. So bring back into  your present what excited you before. Also another things like you know during your week during your  day reintroduce doing that it doesn't matter the purpose is not maybe you will find out that all  of a sudden you don't want to be an actor anymore that's fine right but you need to get unstuck  and so you need to get awareness start doing it again reconnect with the sense of joy fulfillment  maybe that will be enough for you right so one acknowledge There's nothing wrong. You're actually  very smart. If you were able to do this and your mind is so smart that if you did it once, you can  do it right now too. But you move towards another direction. So start doing daily what brings you  joy. So let's go to the third type of drift. Okay. So who's that? So now we're going to move to the  bottom left quadrant. So the first drifting, the first category here is what I call like the sleep  walker, right? So the sleep walker is someone that and I hope to it's not offensive using this word.  I mean I I see myself in all of that to be honest, right? And you can be more than one, right?  That's what you said. You can be you can be I was so sleepwalker. The sleep walker. So the sleep  walker is someone that during their life they made sensitive decision. So they made a decision that  made sense for them at that time but they did not choose the life that they are living. I'm going to  explain means. So yes. So have ever had it happen to you that you make a decision just because  there is a momentum. For example, I am just out of school and there is this opportunity to I  know someone in a company they offer me a position to start working in finance. That's what I've  studied. There is a momentum. Yes, I I chose I'm a big industry. There's no one outside of me forcing  me. No one is going to blame me on not loving me if I say no. I follow the moment. So the momentum  is what motivates me and and I make that decision and then life just continues building on that  momentum. Then I build a career on top of that and then I met someone and I get so life is fine  like there is there is slow erosion. So I made a decision but and I'm living a life that is perfect  but I did not choose it. So but you did choose it. You choose it but unconsciously. What does it  mean? Let's take a let's let's go a layer inside that moment of decision. When someone you've out  of school and someone is offering you the job is a great opportunity lot of money. You make that  decision but you're not checking with yourself and really asking. So if asking yourself wait do  I really maybe you still want to work in finance right but maybe you want to have your own fear it  could be little as that right so do I really want to do that or I am doing because it's simple okay  so what you're saying is are you really aligned with your vision your goals what you truly want  or are you taking this decision yes because it it it looks good right now yes and to go a little  bit deeper I obviously I'm going to stay on the general everyone then has different story but  when I say because people are in the internal forces most of the time and I see myself also  there there is a belief playing maybe deep down I don't believe that I can do something else I  don't believe maybe I am afraid of maybe pursuing or taking a decision because if I fail I am the  one to be blade so those are unconscious ious mechanism right everything is in our subconscious  mind and that's is common to all the drifting right now we don't know we are making very  general but there is something inside of us that is playing an important role and if this is the  scenario that's what most likely happen see and I I totally understand that you say you can be more  because I also feel I could be one of these give you an example um like I said I like doing a lot  of different things and there are many people who have multiple passions, multiple talents. Um, and  so you kind of end up going from one thing to the other and then something else looks interesting,  you're going to jump on that and then what happens is because you're switching so many times, um,  you know, you're not making that momentum. I I know that I can start, you know, sometimes I I  start comparing myself to where other people are. So I I compare my start point to somebody else's  middle. I feel I'm not good enough. I'm never   going to get there. They're, you know, I'm behind.  They're further ahead. I need to do something else because there is something else that I can also  do and I could be successful. So the loop starts again. Yeah, that that's actually you use a very  important word. There is an internal loop that actually is at play in our subconscious mind. Loop  of repetition and not really building momentum. Yeah. Well, in that case for the sleep worker  there is a momentum. They did not build it. It   was just present to them. The opportunity arise  I'll take it easy is easy. I don't take decision. I follow the flow. But that brought me somewhere  else. And now I'm feeling stuck because I don't know where to go. I lost a sense of direction.  I thought I was going to right. Something feels heavy inside. What it is? Well, you probably now  those people are the one that have to wake up. The interesting thing about the sleepalker, if I hear  you say this, is and I also look at my experience and the people I I I coach is that often times  you drift so far away because the process of drifting doesn't feel like drifting. You have  these moments of joy where you jump on something new and then from that you jump to something else.  So it feels like you're making progress but you're   not making you're moving but you're not really  making progress. Yeah, that that is true. you touched it's very difficult like all of these  six category honestly we are making simple it's   very difficult and for some of them they really  need those little tools are going to help them some of them they really need support because  we build a lifetime and I also want to reassure the listening the listener it understanding that  perhaps you took the wrong direction in life it doesn't mean that maybe don't don't blame yourself  if you don't have the courage or the possibility to make changes. It's okay. You don't we don't  all of us link to leave families and jobs and it's sometimes it's okay just to acknowledge and  say you know what for now just start changing the way you approach this life from that moment on  and that's okay. You're not you're still living a a beautiful life at the end of the day. Let's  remind oursel and to be grateful and reframe and look the positive rather than the negative. Right?  So I hope that is also yeah helpful. Okay. So now that we know about sleepwalker what can you do  to stop sleepwalking? Okay. So the first things um this is sounds a little bit creepy but is an  exercise I invite everyone to do it because also will help them to really understand if they are  in this category because it's also very difficult right sometimes you don't know it's called the  abituary u okay exary so it sounds creepy but I I I do all the time and it really works so imagine  is your funeral right and someone write wrote on you know about you the life that you had. I was  a amazing financial um whatever you know all the things that you actually have right now in your  life. So write that and then write what you would like to to read in there. Right? If those two  version are different, that's a signal for you that actually you didn't make the choice that  you really wanted. So this is the first thing. So it's creepy, but it really helps. It brings  you back to reality. It's confronting. Yes, it's confronting. And and then the second thing once  you realize, okay, probably nothing wrong with me. I was probably not conscious, but I had done this  mistake. Then take one um because the problem of these people that all area of their life are very  interconnected and linked to the sense like so you cannot leave everything. It's very difficult.  Take one area for example job or one leader area of your life and start really um being conscious  like make more decision and ask yourself if I were to make this decision again which one I would take  right or or it could be even like every time today that you are in front of decision ask yourself  look back yesterday if today I would make going I was going to make the same confronting with the  same decision and choice which one I would take and really practicing because for those people is  they go more on autopilot right so they ride the wave and so they need to start learning to take  risks to confront who they really are and be okay that maybe they have um needs or pleasure that  are different than what other people thinks and that's Okay. Or they need to bring that self up.  It's going to be uncomfortable but necessary for the change. Okay. So, first start writing your  obituary and then interrupt that. So, in this case, it would be to rethink the decisions that  you made and see if you would make them again. That's what you're saying. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You  say it very So, stop the autopilot. All right. So, we had the pleaser, we had the survivor, we  had the sleep walker. Who's next? Okay. So, we are again in the same quadrant bottom left  internal force loss of direction, right? Okay. Okay. We have the emptier. That is one of the  most difficult to find that to change. Who is the emptier? The emptier is someone that give  everything. Have you ever known someone that gives so much to their family, the work, a mission,  they just give so much and they're left with nothing? Okay. Give me an example. What would that  look like? Okay. So first when for these people when they start feeling the feeling of handiness,  drifting, lack there is there are certain moment in life and by the way I also want to open bracket  there are moment in life like when we turn 30 40 50 or big milestone from work to school when  all this wake up call is going to happen right? One of this for the empty specifically could  be for example retirement or maybe losing a job and not being able to go back to the work  the job market. What happens? Have you ever met someone that either they lose a job or they retire  whatever and they feel the entire word crumble? Specifically for this people they give so much  because internally here the internal they did not create a sense of uh pleasure for themsel. So  they whatever they do the force distraining them is because they feel needed. If I I do things and  I give 100% and it it's a beautiful thing. There's nothing wrong and right is unconscious but like I  see for example my mom she gives so much for the family but ultimately she does because she love  us but I know because obviously I have a little bit of knowledge now she likes to feel needed  she needs to feel needed if you remove that so if we some some reason if we remove the sense  of why I am doing this right she doesn't exist anymore she doesn't have or other people I don't  have hobbies I don't know what I like there is   not a sense I don't know where I have to go if I  ask that they what they do they really do because have pleasure they love people and gas that's  nothing to question that but deep down the reason why they do it because they feel needed if I tell  that person I don't need you to do this they feel so bad there is another person that are have  the same uh and they don't know how to say No, they don't know how to stop. If they are extremely  tired, but they know that you if you ask them,   can you please come over and prepare me the dinner  because I'm sick, they may be dying themselves, they will come because they because you need that.  The difference is with a person's consciousness is with the same love and same effort and nothing  wrong with them. But inside of them, they they also do because they have pleasure. say, "Well,  I do because that makes me feel good, right?" Um, so another person could still do it, but the sense  of the sense of self and feeling fulfilled is not linked outside is inside. I know that I am still  good if I say no or if I give just a little bit. So there is this internal fragmentation and the  emptier it's someone that never they they're not selfish. Those people if you go to the tools they  need to start being a little bit selfish. They never do things for their own pleasure. That's  why isn't they never built something for themsel. Do these people want to change? Because if it  feels so good, if it gives them this fulfillment, why would you want to change? No, that's a good  question. So, let's not forget obviously we are talking here to people if they're listening is  because they are at some point in life that they recognize that something is not going really well.  So those people for example why they empty or what happens all of a sudden right how they recognize  themsel they keep doing the same things that they keep make them feel alive giving to family  giving to a job because they give so much they don't feel anything so they feel that they lost  the passion they lost the motivation they still keep doing right so to go back to your questions  we addressing to people that they they have had that habit bit and all of a sudden they feel like  drained and even if they take a vacation okay maybe my mojo and my no like everything it's flat  I I used to love painting I gave everything to it and doesn't excite me anymore right so one I am  empty I'm drained those people are not lazy they are not procrastinating there is nothing wrong  with them they just need to take time to really sit it and learning to do the things even reading  a book not because tomorrow someone is going to ask me can you tell me about the book because  I love this book there is no audience I'm doing for myself how could you help a person understand  what's happening if they are you know if you have to tell someone that this is not sustainable if  they are not aware yet so if they're still in this still an autopilot right maybe they feel always  tired and they say I don't want to do it but still   they still do that's a little a bittersweet but  can I tell you something that at the end of the day it's really my belief that's not up to us to  help anyone what we can do is to open a door and shine a light and bring awareness say hey I love  you even if you don't do this I feel that you are doing this because maybe inside of you you feel  less than so just plant a seed in their mind but we cannot change they it's their past. If there  is a reason why they have to go through this because there is a learning probably they have to  learn to give to themsel to love themsel right we are all learning to love ourself at the end of  the day right so that's their path we are not going to help there's none even if as a coach as  a therapist we're providing tool we say hey here is the door I'm shining a light but you need to  take action right so sometimes Luka and I want to say this because many people I know we really want  to help and we see we really see the other person failing going in the wrong relationships. How this  is really wrong but this is this very selfish act because we somehow are interfering with their life  path. Perhaps they need to fail like the emptier. Perhaps they need to reach the point of emptiness  because that's their wakeup call, right? Sometimes if you not experience extreme pain, you're not  going to change. If you identify as the emptier, what can you practically do to find a way back to  yourself? Yeah. Start practicing being a little bit selfish. As I say before, find start doing.  And it's very difficult for them but like start doing something reading a book choosing a dish to  go to a restaurant where to go a movie to watch just for the pleasure of watching that movie. No  one knows about it. No one is going to be helped by you. Just yourself something that makes  you feel good. Right? And practice that. It's practicing. bring something in your life than  bringing joy because so why does pe people feel lost because the source of their sense of self  and identity is outside is always been outside when that source goes away when no one is needing  me anymore I'm retired or when no one has asked me to cook for yam that source is is done and inside  I don't know where to go so build that source of motivation or something inside of you and start  from there. Marina, this is so helpful to see all these different uh stages that you can drift  in and what you can do about it. Um, we have two more to go. Yes. So, I'm very curious what is the  next one. So, now you're moving on the other side of the quadrant. So, we are back on the top but  on the right the camalon. So, back on the top on the right. to the force in place is still in again  the outside force. So something that is happening outside of us but in this case we talk about  what we what got lost is not just direction is identity the sense of self. So what does identity  mean before we go into it? The identity is like a container right that contains um how we feel our  thinking emotions experience memory everything and in a co when those are in sense in coherence  in they are coherent right you remember at the beginning you talk uh what I feel what I think I  feel and I act are in alignment there is a sense of coherent then I have a sense of identity  I identify With this I'm making very simple but just to help to identify for some people like  this first like the next drift that I'm going to introduce which is called the chamealon the very  early in life for something that I'm going to tell very soon they never developed the sense of self  this identity right so before like the pleaser for example they lost direction because they have  a sense of self so if you ask them do you want to go left and right. Maybe they say right to please  you, but deep down they know they want to go left. This category, for example, the Canary that they  lost the sense of identity. They really don't know because they never had the possibility to make the  decision to develop the sense of self. Okay. So, you're calling it the chameleon because because  you know the chameleon they can change colors. So those people, those categories, they are very  very good in reading the room and adapt. They adapt so well to everything and everyone. But  they lost their own colors. They're very good in adapting to all other people's colors.  They lost their own. Why this happened? There are unfortunately a certain people that  since the moment that they grow up they live in um a dysfunctional family maybe u an um I don't  know alcoholic parents or uh dysfunctional family like not emotionally available and maybe they  learned that they had to adapt how the mood is how is the mood of my mom and my dad today  what do I have to do who I have to be to be loved accept adapted wanted otherwise I'm going  to die. So there's the same mechanism right as a kid we need their love because otherwise we don't  survive. So the difference between the pleaser and the chamalon the pleaser I was just going to ask  yeah yeah those are very similar but there is a   difference so as a pleaser is born they're being  this child developing nothing wrong but still for something external they start adapting all right  but the pleaser the pleaser so the sense of self is developing is de developed on the chameleon it  never developed so How those people growing up in life, those are incredible, wonderful people  because they are so empathetic. They tune in so easily in other people, but they start making  choices because of how the circumstances heat. So they go where the wind goes somehow, right? What  makes the pleaser develop this sense of self? Mhm. And why doesn't the chameleon develop it? Where's  the difference? Well, because for the chameleon the the situation like the external forces most  most of the time is living in a family with caregiver where it's not safe and it's very very  early in life like I am born in an environment where I cannot I don't have the space to feel  safe enough to explore myself to really play with myself like playing like I do this because I can't  it's so unsafe that the only thing the first thing I can need to learn to do is to read how's my mom  and the kids babies they do this right how's my mom today can I say this can I shout do I need  to sleep when you grow up in an environment that is unsafe where you are constantly feeling that  you are walking on eggs that you don't have to upset anyone this is when you stop building your  own identity you never you never start you just only went in adop adopting You just only learn  to adapt. You never learned you, right? So the self was send there's no container like it's not  container like it's never I never asked myself do I want an ice cream or do I want I don't know  pasta never I don't know because I never asked. So for those people um for example in the daily life  they may have trouble in relationship in staying for too long. Why? Because relationship are very  uh an unsafe place because at some point when you go deep in that you need to start showing who you  really are the sense of self and they don't feel safe one because they don't know where they are.  If they are alone in a room, they don't have a phone. There's nothing kind of distracting.  They It's very uncomfortable for them as a relationship. They may be for example avoidant  like fearful avoidant type of people like they pulled away because they are so scared. They don't  know who they are. So they maybe in life starting taking jobs and they still believe there's nothing  wrong right I I am really giving example here but this week I'm called and this feeling unfulfilled  is because they are keeping following direction because of still momentum but because I'm pleasing  someone I I'm reading the room that's what needs to be done that's what people want from me that's  what feels safe that's what feels good but I don't because I actually don't know what I want and  that's very Scary. It's very scary. So for someone who feels they are this chameleon and now they  wake up and they feel scared, they feel lost. They have no idea what they want. How do you reconnect?  Oh, it's not that difficult. It takes a lot of practice probably more than the other, right? But  the sense of self is there. Those people, they need to build that self through evidence. They  really need to build through evidence what that means really every day whenever you are choosing  a meal. Ask yourself, be very conscious. It's very difficult and comfortable at the beginning,  but you need to parent yourself. You need to be your parents. Hey kid, do you want an apple or do  you want a pair? And then you pause and you tune in. There's going to be a signal. I want a pair.  Okay. Do I like it? Experience it. build evidence, right? If start small every day, it gives that  sense like you need to build that self. So you need to be very cautious. Another things that they  can do for example is to find a time during the day where they disconnect like find stay alone in  a room no phone, no distraction, no night alone and just notice what arise. So you need to those  people never connected they feel very disconnected from the self because they never connected notice  what arise no judgment nothing just what arise thoughts whatever start start connecting whatever  isn't there whatever what are you supposed to notice like the inner voice how do you know it's  not your inner voice judging you yeah that's a that's a good question then maybe you will reflect  something maybe you're in a moment of life. Maybe you are experiencing disconnect. So maybe you feel  prone to reflect on where you are at this time. Just allow it. Whatever it is, allow it. Reflect.  Take note. Don't judge. It's just just leave it there. There's nothing wrong with that. You need  to practice this reconnection, the awareness, and and trying to build this evidence. Who am  I? What do I like? Why do I do this? Why? Why did I take this choice in this circumstance? How  I am feeling right now? And it is very complex. I always uh encourage maybe to work with someone.  Another practice that they can do and this is much easier. If those people have in their life  a friend or someone that they can really trust, talk to them and practice being yourself with  them. So practice being yourself with yourself. like spend as much time but don't build a mask  like whenever allow yourself to be that to bring out that weird quirky part of yourself sometimes  maybe you want to always feel like oh I need to if we sleep together I cannot snore because  just just do it right don't be afraid because ultimately those people need to understand that  it's okay there's no relation there's no people   that have everything Perfect. It's actually that  imperfection that it's okay. It's okay to have a have eb and flow and to have a day where I'm I'm  amazing and another day where I am a mess. Those people never learned that. They never felt safe  to be not good and not perfect. So spend time with someone that loves you. talk to them and practice  being practice crying. Pra p practice complaining. Practice say no to something. Practice being  the messy version of yourself. Just bring that part. It's it's an exercise. It's a muscle. The  intention here is to practice. You were born into a world that felt unsafe to now suddenly start  doing things that you know go against your nature because that's what what it is and start saying no  like the pleaser is scary. So maybe see it as an experiment and start small. Yes. And this I'm I'm  glad you touched upon this. Whatever we are saying for all this category and we're just moving to  the last one now. H please remember the practicing whatever drifting you see yourself this practicing  that the purpose is not because you need to make any changes today. The returning home I'm going to  use this big word returning home. Whatever is for you it's a life journey. It is a journey. You  don't need to make this switch. It's not going to it is impossible. But through awareness  and training, talk to your mind, reframe, do this exercise, walk with some expert, it is  your journey. You're going to reconnect yourself. It is a journey. So don't blame yourself and be  really, really, really little by little. Arena, this brings us to the last one. Yes, the last  one. And it makes me think a little bit about   you because you mentioned this a lot of time. So  you will tell me. Okay. This is again is something internal and loss of identity. I want to see the  juggler. This is lost identity, lost direction. They can be a little bit in the middle. For the  sake of this podcast, we put it lost identity. All right. Who is a juggler? This is I I love this  because with these people, they're really nothing wrong. They really had the best life. this family,  nothing traumatic happened, no external forces, no one not loving you. Those are very gifted people  that just have a lot of talent. They they like writing, they like playing, they're really good  at coding. They have they have it all and they're really good at what they do. I told you I told you  because you talk to me. So those are the people that for example and a lot of it is also me.  They jump from one thing to another. I start this project. I do it. I go all hand and then something  maybe think no there is something else I have to   boom I jump and I I so I I never finish anything  I'm really good at everything people thinks that I'm amazing my resume is incredible but then at  the end of the day I feel lost I don't know what I really like I don't know what I have to do  those people are imagine like chapters without a book so here there is you know the identity  there's no container those are people that never landed anywhere and the reason why that happened  is nothing wrong with that. They just had a lot of passion. They never choose anything and stopped  there. Now the reason why is internal again for to make it simple there's always something maybe  the subconscious mind probably because landing somewhere means that I may discover that I am  someone I am not and I'm good and I'm scared. So there's always something in our subconscious mind  that display. But at the end of the day, those   people that have an amazing life, they just feel  unfulfilled because they cannot pursue anything long enough to become successful. The reason  you're not choosing is because choosing feels like you have to leave all these other options,  all these alternative versions of yourself, you have to leave them behind. And that's super scary  cuz you could be all of them. Why limit yourself? Yeah, you see really really good. That's very  on point. So choosing feels committing and if   I commit to something it means that I'm I'm  finding something about me that probably I'm afraid to know. Number one choose they think that  commit to something means that I have to drop all the rest which is not true. So one little exercise  that they can do actually one thing that I want to say before the exercise that could be even more  helpful for those people also kind of reassuring those people will notice I'm sure yourself too  that you can take all this passion that you have for sure there is something common to all of them  like a like for sure you know yeah try to identify that and that is where is going to give you the  sense of direction. I I like that you're saying this because it is something that I have struggled  a lot about. It is something that I create tools about. Um because it's also a you know getting rid  of an all or nothing identity. Yeah. Um but at the same time committing long enough to allow yourself  to to see results. Yeah. And and when you identify this common thread, like you said, I call them  themes. Like for me my theme is creativity. My theme is is uh expression and when you do things  within that theme you can switch. You just have to commit long enough to start and see results. Yes.  Yes. And one thing that team you say creativity you need to make it a little bit more specific.  How specific do you have to get before you your   mind starts saying oh no I'm committing too much.  specific enough that your mind can create a clear picture that something that needs to make sense,  right? If it's vague, if I don't create a picture, I don't know where I'm going. So, it's still  like a a maker creative. Okay, what is this? So, ultimately, I cannot tell. But maybe if you sit  enough, write down a few things, it will come up, right? Um, so you need to be more specific. maybe  creating brighter or something that you put that has that element of the visual, the acting and  the writing. It could be it could be more than two things, right? But there needs to be a little  bit layer more specific than just creative. So that's one another things that they can do like  a reframe. Tell yourself I'm going to choose for example for 90day right you you think about take  all this passion that you have and just see the one that now you feel more drawn to take that  one commit to that for 90 days or depending on the project and tell yourself for for this time  I'm going to park create a parking lot all these others they still exist they're still mine but I  choose to commit And the purpose is to see I going to go deep enough because you also want again  here there is a sense of self but you you need to build that container. So you need to understand  I am doing because I'm good but I really like it does really fulfill me fulfill me. So there is  really an internal work that you have to do and it doesn't mean that at the end you have to drop  anything but it's really more um uh how do I say an exercise on choosing and being intentional  and really having a little bit more discipline. In a previous podcast, I've spoken about the  stay until rule, which is a rule that, you know, I created for the purpose of being at an event.  But the stay until rule is also some is a tool that does what you say. You choose to commit to a  project or you choose to commit to a specific goal not forever but for a specific time frame like  for a season like 90 days to 6 months and then have these in between checkpoints where you where  you check is this still aligned with what I want. Yeah. So that you don't escape if you're still  aligned you know that you have to go through that extra effort to get the results that you need.  Yeah. Yeah. Let's not forget again we are talking about people that feel lost drained lost a sense  of purpose and fulfillment. Those specific people like the the juggler they they they lost a sense  of purpose because they do many things but not enough to understand does this really is mine like  how how does make sense with me. So the purpose of committing something yes it's always to understand  at some point you don't want to waste your time but remember the purpose is you're doing for you  need to discover how much this makes me feel alive right so that's why you you check in with your  theme or your your your the through line uh which was in my case creativity or a layer deeper than  that but also keep checking if you're in alignment with that over time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.  And don't be afraid to say no at some point to something because we this people is like they  build also they don't have a proper identity but they build identity around many things and because  all these categories can all overlap as we learned sometimes we we we're very good at something and  we keep doing just because people think that we   are good at it and whatever right? So again we are  probably also pleasing someone else. It could be quite complex, right? But at the end of the day,  if these people want to recognize themselves,   those are people that since they were kid, they  had a lot of passions, multi-talented, they can do everything, but they never landed anywhere. So  discipline for young and practicing a little bit and like I'm setting aside and I'm going to commit  and do. And that's what as a starting point. Wow. So Maria, that was a whole lot. We got like six  types of drifting. We went over the pleaser, the survivor, the sleepwalker, the emptier, the  chameleon, and the juggler. Yeah. And like you say, you can be one, you can have more of these  uh types like there is no specific one. What is most important for all these types of drifting?  What what is that one thing? No matter what type you are or what you know, what do you do? Be kind  to yourself. One, tell yourself if you are in this moment of feeling lost, drifted, whatever this is  not negative. It is a signal. There is that self, this direction, the purple, it wants to come  up. Now you learn that there are many mechanism, many reason internal or external something that  that happens to everyone in life. Everyone for some reason you drift away. So now you have this  opportunity. to stay allow yourself to feel lost as allow yourself to stay in that mess and try to  make sense of it yourself. Ask for help. But this is one thing that I invite you to do. Don't take  any action yet. Just dive in like a seat. Go in and allow yourself to stay under the soil enough  to understand who you are and how you got here. and then consciously decide am I ready to make  the change what I am willing to do ultimately it's your life no one nothing is going to happen  even if you stay exactly where you are but just move forward with more awareness of yourself your  past your life and the direction you want to go so this is one thing another thing is again remember  your mind at some point in life to protect you to save you. Put it in a soul mechanism that  obviously now is kind of creating more problem but at that time made you a sleep walker or a  pleaser whatever but he was protecting you. So your mind remember that is extremely powerful and  if that he was able to do that to protect you your mind the only job that they have is to protect  you. So if today consciously after you stay a little bit and you tell your mind what you really  want to do because it's safe to go that direction, you will be amazed or how powerful your mind is.  So make your mind your best friend. Thank you so much Marina. You're welcome. Thank you for having  me, Lucka. And to you listening wherever you are, I hope this conversation sparked something  for you. No matter where you are in life, the journey back to yourself starts by recognizing  that something needs to change. You can find out more about Marina Palmarini and her book,  Dancing with Life, by checking out the links in the description. You'll also find a link to a quiz  that you can take if you're curious to explore the six drifts for yourself. And if this conversation  made you think of someone you care about, share it with them. I'm Luca and I'm looking  forward to seeing you in our next conversation. Please help me welcome to the Lucas Vati  podcast, Marina Palmarini. Hey, Marina. 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