Maybe someone hurt you years ago and even though life moved on, part of you is still carrying what happened. Or maybe the person you're struggling to forgive is yourself. A choice you made, something you wish you had done differently, a mistake you keep replaying, or simply the feeling that you should have known better. And sometimes we don't even realize we're holding on to something. Hey, it's Luca and welcome to The Luca Savazzi Podcast. Forgiveness is one of those words we all know and still it can be surprisingly difficult to understand what it actually means and how to do it. And what happens when you know you want to move forward, but you're simply not ready. Because forgiveness isn't only about our relationships with other people. Sometimes the resentment, disappointment, judgment we keep carrying is directed at ourselves. And whether we realize it or not, what we continue to carry influences our choices, our behavior, the results, and ultimately the person we're trying to become. My guest today is Dion Nichols Germaine. Dion is a life and leadership coach, author of the 90 days conquering unforgiveness journal, and the founder of Live Your Best Life for You. Her work focuses on helping people understand forgiveness not simply as something we offer another person, but as a way of reclaiming our own agency and creating space to move forward. She discovered a profound truth. Unforgiveness, especially toward oneself, is one of the greatest barriers to living out our divine purpose and leading with courage, peace, and impact. And what makes this conversation especially interesting is that Dion's understanding of forgiveness didn't begin as a theory. It grew out of experiences in her own life that challenged what forgiveness actually meant to her. It's a pleasure to welcome Dion Nichols Germaine to the Lucas Alati podcast. Hey Dion, welcome to the show. Hey, it's great to be here. [laughter] Yeah, I'm so excited that you're here because I think that what you talk about forgiveness is one of those words that we all know and at the same time it can be really difficult to understand what it actually means and especially when you're in situations that are difficult like where do you begin and at the same time it might be the very thing that you need in order to move forward and start creating the life that you're meant to live. M. So before we begin and dive into your story, in what way can someone's life change if they take to heart everything that we are going to talk about today? Ooh, great question. We're just we're just going in hot, aren't we? Yeah, we're going in. How about this? Everything changes. Everything changes when you start to forgive. And I and I we will get into it but my my my life is a testimony of that everything changes. So what is your definition of forgiveness? So my definition of forgiveness I've taken it from my personal journey psychologists you know um but it's a [snorts] conscious deliberate decision right so it's not a feeling a very active process so it's a conscious decision it's deliberate to release the resentment the betrayal those those hard emotions that are no longer serving you so that and and I'll say this and it's regardless and it's regardless of whether that person is even deserving or of your forgiveness. And at the same time, it's something that really takes some effort, especially like if you're in the middle of something difficult, like how do you do that? Especially when you're in the middle of it. Especially when that person's really close to you, it just gets even more complex and and um challenging. And yet for you to move on, for you to be free is why we must continue to practice forgiveness. And I'm hoping [clears throat] this also this reframe helps people because I actually say that that forgiveness is one of the highest forms of personal transformation. So when you look at it that way, it's who you become on the other side of forgiveness, right? So in my case, my my life is unrecognizable because I keep choosing it. So whe [clears throat] that's um you know in terms of my relationships uh so relationally, financially um emotionally, mentally all of that changes the more you forgive spiritually, right? Your mind, your body, your soul, it hits all cylinders practice forgiveness. So when you look at in that more empowered way, right? Because typically we look at forgiveness from a very disempowered way, right? It we have all the reasons why, right? What that we learned growing up. I'll ask you, Luka, what did you learn about forgiveness growing up? that it's um something that doesn't always come natural because sometimes we hold on to resentment um grief um all kinds of emotions that kind of block you from moving forward or from forgiving. And it's funny that you say it because for me forgiveness sometimes it can sound vague when people say you have to forgive and move on when you feel how can I forgive a person that doesn't really deserve being forgiven. Right? So there you go. Right? One, it's vague. We learn very much about forgiveness growing up. And so now when the things come up, right, it goes against natural instinct. If you feel bad and someone made you feel bad, your natural instinct is right to harbor that that negative emotion. It's either, hey, they they they owe me that apology. There's there's a the all the power is in their hands because you're the victim to the thing that they've done to you, right? Yeah. Meanwhile, when you start to shift actually how you look at forgiveness and truly understand what it is, then you start to realize, wait a second, it's less about them and it's more about me. It's more about my freedom, my joy, my peace, you know, reclaiming my power, my purpose. So, that's why I'm going to forgive. But again, when it's been so vague growing up society, you know, we know what we're pushing. We're pushing cancel culture. You know, hey, it's weak, right, to forgive. So, with all of these myths and limiting beliefs, it's it's of course it makes sense why we're so hesitant to Mhm. give it a try. And I like what you said because sometimes you feel like somebody owes you or it's unfair to forgive an injustice or something and so it goes against your your nature to just, you know, be able to forgive. But I'm curious, is this always how you thought about forgiveness? No. I've come a long way uh in terms of when I made the decision to actually take this on because let's be honest, nobody just decides to pick up the most complicated, messy, right, vague [laughter] plunging topic like forgiveness or what's right? They've got a personal uh testimony. And I'll be honest, I have two. I have both a a personal and professional reason why I'm so committed to this work. When I look at one of the biggest moments in my life where I decided to choose forgiveness, which would go against every every other uh woman who's been cheated on um multiple times uh who experienced a secret child in a 17-year relationship. Wow. with your college sweetheart who you thought you know you were going to have the happy ending right I mean 10 years in you would think okay we're going to get married at this point we have a son together um we've got the brownstone in Brooklyn we're in our we're each working in our respective fields you know his dream was to work we actually both came from a a small town called Ottawa Ontario Canada it's actually the capital of Canada um but we both moved to New York with big dreams like I said as college college sweethearts um who want to work on Wall Street. My dream was to work in fashion for Fifth Avenue and I got to do that. He got to fulfill his dream, right? I did that for over 20 years. Got to travel to Europe. Um worked for a French house, German, uh Italian. I mean, from the outside looking in, we were living the dream. You had a a young son together at this point. Um, but sadly I realized, you know, like I said, 10 years in, hm, anytime I'd bring up marriage, he'd kind of freeze up like a a deer in headlights or deflect conversation, you know. Uh, so come to find out, you know, he was stepping out relationship. Um, and it went on for years. I I did forgive the first time I out. I was actually 5 months pregnant at the time. Um, but we really wanted to have I wanted to have my son have both parents. I didn't have that and neither did he, you know, and he promised it wouldn't happen again. Um, and unfortunately a few years later, that's when I found out about his son that he had kept from me until he was three. Um, I actually forgave at that point as well. I said, "Okay, we did a we did a really good job actually blending our families." my little brother, you know, he didn't ask to come into this world, right? Um, but unfortunately the infidelity didn't stop. I got an email, you know, from a woman and that was the day, you know, you feel like, you know, the whispers were already getting pretty loud and uh when I saw that email, I said, "Thank you. I can now start the first day of the rest of my life." And I can't explain it then, but somehow intuitively I knew for me to actually make room one for the good love I believed I was worthy of. So that was first. Um just for what I wanted to create next, the next chapter of my life, um I knew forgiveness would be important. But above and beyond all of that, it was really what I was committed to, and that was my son's well-being. So for me, I was committed to, you know, my son knowing that whether his parents were together or not, that he that we loved him, that we had his back, that we were a united front. And I I'm happy to say we we created a really healthy, loving co-parenting relationship. uh to the point where we were um already separated at this point and few years in actually and he reaches out to me just when I was at this crossroads in my life where I'm like hm I thought fashion was it but I feel like there's something else I'm being called to do. I didn't quite know what it was but I knew I wanted to use my voice. I knew I actually at that point I was thinking about becoming a kindergarten school teacher cuz I love when my son was that age you know and my son's father he reaches out to me remember we're not together at this point he says he was also in this kind of legacy mode he's like I want to I want to launch a financial literacy youth program will you help me so before we go there like how was your relationship with him on trust Well, I'll say this. I truly wanted to believe, right, that he was going to recommmit and we were going to have the life that I believe we were we were deserving of, you know. Um, I can't say it was easy by any means, but for us to really make it work and make really make a go of it, if I can't fully trust the process, and don't get me wrong, doesn't mean it's overnight. We just everything is rainbows and roses, right? But by taking the time to rebuild the trust is what I'm hoping, right? Which is built over time that it would work. Unfortunately, it didn't. And so I do want to make a a very important distinction to anyone cuz that's some of them some of the myths out there about forgiveness that because you forgive you have to automatically trust that person. Yeah. No. Um, trust takes time. Forgiveness can be a a a instant decision. It also can also take time. But let's say you're finally at that place where you've made the decision to forgive. It doesn't mean you have to automatically trust that person, right? How do you build trust? You actually have to discern over time based on what that person said they weren't going to do anymore. Are they consistent with what they said they were going to do? And if they are over time they're consistent and you see, hey, they've really changed. They're not doing that thing they said they were going to do that was so hurtful. Well, then you can get back to that full place of restoration and reconciliation. But if not, then you might have to make a different choice, whatever is best for you. And that's why I also say forgiveness may also require boundaries. Yeah. So if they are doing that thing again, maybe that thing is not even safe. It could be literally maybe they're being abusive. You can still forgive them, but we don't condone the behavior. So forgiveness is for the person, right? Which primarily is you, right? Boundaries is for the behavior. How did you set your boundaries? Well, one, I I still never allowed myself to be someone even after these things happened. I'm not the person who's going to try to control cling. Like if if you're if you're here with me, I'm I anything you're trying to manipulate to keep. It's sustainable. So I'm still going to rem remain authentically who I am. I'm still going to be the person that I choose to be in this relationship. I'm not your wife yet, but I'm committed to you. So, I'm still going to show up in my role in this relationship and be good to you because then that means I'm in alignment with my core values and beliefs and then it's up to you to do your part. Boundaries are if there's something that I don't agree with, I'm going to let you know. Um, so I'm going to have those clear as kind conversations. Um, I'm also going to protect my peace. So at some point if if this is just something you're going to continue to do, well then at some point I'm going to make the decision to move on. So those are just some of the the ways I would say I am putting the proper boundaries in place that eventually when that time comes you can see that's exactly what I did. If someone is not there yet, like at that level where you're able to forgive, what do you need to have in place in order to get there? Well, I feel like a lot of what will get you there is your own self-healing work. It's it's priming your heart, your mind, right? Doing the healing work for yourself because I believe then forgiveness can can flow from there. So um for example, I have always been a huge proponent of gratitude. May seem counterintuitive, but believe it or not, do you have a really uh you know strong gratitude practice? because if you do it, it completely rewires your brain to look for the good even in the most difficult situations. And we're not talking about bypassing. We're not talking about not acknowledging what happened and processing, right? Cuz that's a very important piece of forgiveness. Sometimes even more painful than the actual thing that happened by taking the time to really process and heal from those emotions. Um, but there's a level of resilience that takes place when you have a really, you know, active gratitude practice. Notice I didn't say gratitude attitude. It really is an active gratitude practice that again, mind, body, soul, everything opens up when you do. So that when things like this come, believe it or not, you can still find something in there. What you're saying is that you do this work before, you know, this is work that you do in your core, as a person, as a human. Yeah. And you can do them when you're in them. Believe it or not, it can still also help you get out of the spiral. And that's why you want to do it before so when the moment comes, you can actually even at times pull yourself out of it because you've been building that muscle. Right. Right. Right. So sometimes I say to people, can you be can you be grateful for what you've been bitter for? So there there's actually gratitude in there and there's a level of acceptance when you're trusting that everything has purpose, right? So in my case for example, no, in the moment I'm not grateful that he cheated on me. But believe it or not, I'm looking back and when you realize it's actually use the most difficult people and situations that become your greatest teacher. It's happening for a reason. What's the lesson? What's the wisdom I'm supposed to gain from this? And have the gratitude in that. And I realized when we met, I was only 19, right? I didn't know who I was. I didn't have my voice yet. Believe I have I had to find my voice through that whole process that there came a time when he said, Tion, I don't know who you are anymore. And I said, "Thank you." Because I learned to advocate for myself, you know, stand my ground and know my worth. Like, right. No, I'm not grateful that he hurt me. I'm I'm grateful for what I Right. The gold there's always there's always gold. You the most growth that takes place is not when things are actually I always say it's not when you're have you're in a white room with white feathers and pillows. It's when you're going through the stuff that you experience the most growth and evolution right in your in your becoming. So what was for you the gold? What did you what do you know now that you didn't know back then? about forgiveness. Yeah. So good. So one, right, I saw all the benefits of what my son, right, my what my commitment, my highest commitment was. I think my son's 21 now. So fast forward, right, 17 years later, right, to see how well-rounded my son is. Uh we were able to take family trips together, you know, when we actually when he was going to college, he's almost done. We were able to fly and get him settled in together, you know. Um we were able to really rewrite our legacy and put good into the world because I ended up saying yes. He actually wanted to to launch a a nonprofit together, a financial literacy nonprofit when I was sort of at that crossroads. As I mentioned, I was a a single mom, 40, and I just felt like there's something else for me, right? And I'm like, okay, well, this is still educating, still empowering the next generation, just in a different way, but this is my ex. Um, but by saying yes, right, by choosing forgiveness, by actually saying yes to this, um, we created the nonprofit, created the curriculum, and and now we're going into underresourced areas and and serving, you know, young people and high schools and and youth organizations. his his gifting was was that financial piece. I brought the the, you know, teaching them that the executive presence and and the networking and the the the the personal, you know, leadership piece. And so, by bringing our gifts together, um, we're now, you know, making impact around the tri-state area, helping hundreds, eventually thousands of young people because before you know it, the administrators and and and teachers, they want to know, well, how do we learn this stuff? So now we launch a five-star rated podcast and get signed to a network, right? Cuz I forgave and said yes. And and next thing you know, we actually get commissioned to teach our program back in Ottawa, Ontario at our alma mater at the university. Now we're flying back and forth to teach our program. Brian up now rekindling my relationship with my father [clears throat] who still live who I was estranged from him for about 30 years again. You know, forgiveness can look different in every situation. That's why I'm putting it out there. Right. Right. Right. Um in this case, no, it wasn't I just forgave my dad. It took me about 30 years. Um he actually suffers with mental illness. And so when you're young, um, when you would have those mental breaks, he would hurt my mom, physically abus him towards my mom and sometimes my siblings. And so I held on to them, right, for years. Not that my mom had the courage to have him removed from our home. Um, but all I can remember is, hey, you hurt my mom. And it wasn't until now we're flying back and forth um to prepare for the program and actually then lead it that I started looking for my dad. We'd have lunch every time I was in town. And before you know it, I had my dad back in my life because I realized now with some spaciousness around it, um, a little more wisdom that he wasn't well, right? He didn't want to intentionally hurt my mom. So, I was able to actually get to a place of empathy for my father. Did you forgive him expecting him to change at this point? No. Because he's so much older now. my parents aren't together. And I'll say this, I always knew my dad loved me. Like I never questioned that, but I felt like, you know, it was such a I remember how scary it was as a child. And I had resentment towards him toward for for hurting my mother. He actually never hurt me physically, but the fact I felt he disrupted our childhood and he and he hurt my mom is what I held on to. Now, I'll be honest with you. Years prior to that, this is when I'm already living in New York, 9/11 hit. My dad went cuz I don't think he was in communication with my mom at that point. So, he he went to find her at work to see if I was okay and if my little brother were if we were okay. So, that's why I'm saying to you, I always knew that he loved us. Sadly, because of his illness and what took place, I just never felt a connection or closeness to him. But when I heard he was looking for me, um I was willing to speak to him. My brother still was not at that point. Um, and I remember finally getting to say everything that I ever wanted to say when I was a child, but was too scared to. And so I was able to just get it all out. He never admitted to anything. He didn't apologize. But man, the closure it gave me because I was able to give that little girl the voice she didn't have then. Yeah. Now, it's funny cuz I was just writing it down. What if it's one-sided? You do your thing. It doesn't get a response. Maybe it's not like you say your dad doesn't apologize anything. How do you get closure? Yeah, that was it for me. I think it was the healing of my little inner child, right? Whether he acknowledged or not, I felt like I was finally vindicated, you know, because I finally had the moment to face that thing I never had a chance to face. So, by the time now I'm seeing him, how many years later, what's that? I think it was like 14 years later. I've already had closure and now I'm at a place of acceptance and empathy for him because he's not well. He still suffers till this day. But let me tell you, it's the best feeling even at my 40s and 50s to hear my dad say, "I'm proud of you. I love you. I've got my dad back." you know, and so that's what I I am um I guess at peace about that. But I'm we launched the program in Ottawa on campus um with a live, you know, podcast taping with the whole crew and everything just to get the buzz on going on the on the campus. Um I had both my parents sitting in the front row. Wow. Cheering me on. I hadn't had that, you know, since I was probably five, six doing gymnastics, you know. My my parents became friends again, you know. So, all that was kept, you know, I just kept seeing the rippling effects of healing generationally even cuz my son got to meet his grandfather at 13, you know. Um, I just saw the generational healing, the exponential, you know, possibility, the the limitless possibility, the impact. um that takes place you know every time I keep choosing forgiveness. People listening are everywhere in their lives like not everybody is dealing with betrayal or grief or anything. What are some common things that people need forgiveness for or need to forgive themselves or others for? Like what are areas? Sure. So it's great you say that. So, um, for those who don't know, I actually also have a book. It's actually a a journal. It's called the 90-day bringing unforgiveness journal. Uh, the tagline is for high performing high achievers. And the reason for that, so I mentioned the professional aspect as to why I'm also very excited to bring this work um, also into the corporate space. Right. Normal people aren't really talking about forgiveness, but what do we know, right? People are peopleling everywhere. Right. Right. And so I noticed because I'm also a uh an executive coach. I'm a life and leadership coach. And so working with leaders, founders around the world, what I came to realize is that as high performing high achievers, I'm a recovering perfectionist myself. Guilty. Okay. I punished you in this club, right? I know I'm not alone. um we can be really hard on ourselves as humans and it can hold us back. And I just kept hearing these recurring themes, right, that I'm not going to I'm not going to speak up in a meeting unless I'm 155% right because if I'm wrong, I'm going to beat myself up for weeks, right? And then I thought about, okay, so now how productive are you? You know, how is your well-being? how if you're if we're doing that on a co basis, how much gold is the company missing out on because they're not getting your your your genius, right? And so on. Um, let's say, hey, I'm so hard on myself that I'm not stepping out for that stretch project or that promotion because I I beat myself up so so much or I'm such a I have such a fear of failure cuz I I'm so beating myself up from the last one that I'm I'm holding myself back from my career trajectory. And do they even realize that it has anything to do with forgiveness? Not normally. Not till I bring it to their attention, right? That importance to to learn to give ourselves that grace even to rest. Like how many of us are overwork and burn out and many times it's just because we won't give ourselves the grace or forgive ourselves for not having the ability to do it all. you know, um, parents who are so hard on themselves because if the the the the the vacation isn't planned out so perfectly down to the minute, right? And now they can't even fully be present. They don't realize that, hey, maybe if you're just a little more forgiving, compassion, gracious with yourself, you might, you know, be able to just relax a little bit and be more present. Even I'm hearing forgiveness and I'm also hearing permission and I'm also hearing allowing yourself rest and space and pause. Like how is that different from each other? Ooh, I don't think they're different. I think they're connected. I believe if you are able to be more forgiving, gracious, and compassionate with yourself, those things naturally flow from it. Right? Instead of being hard on yourself because you're not doing enough. Hey, let me give myself some grace. Did I hit let me did I hit all my my top priorities today? Did I hit those first three things? Okay, I'm going to forgive myself for not finishing the other three. Yeah, I recognize that. The more gentle you are with yourself, right? Doesn't mean you are settling for mediocrity. That's not what we're talking about. Mhm. It's all about accountability. But imagine, you know, many a time how we are so forgiving with someone else when they've had a misstep or uh, you know, didn't quite hit the mark, but yet we're we're we're so harsh and how we talk to ourselves. Yeah. So, they're all interconnected. I am a person I can just keep going. I have goals. I have visions. I think that sleep is necessary of course but I'm learning that I need to allow myself to give more time to sleep and to rest so that you can be more productive and I also keep lists and stuff because I I need to know I have to finish things in order to move forward. And the day that something maybe stands in the way or it doesn't go the way I planned, I can be pretty hard on myself and thinking I should have done more. I should have been there or I'm now behind and everything. What would forgiveness look like? Sure. Well, in that So, let's just make sure we we're all on the same page. That voice [clears throat] is going to show up, right? That voice, it's not you. It's just a part of you, right? And in that voice, it it's actually showing up from all the way somewhere in your past typically because something was said to you, right? From someone that more than likely you love or look up to, whether that's a parent, a coach, a counselor who wanted the best for you to protect you, right? It was actually said from a place of love. So remember that. But then eventually over time that same voice is the thing that actually starts getting in the way. And guess when it usually shows up? When you're tired, where things are going wrong, right? So that's one thing when you're underresourced. So when there's something at stake cuz there's something that matters to you. So keep that in mind. If you're just tying your shoelaces, that voice is not going to show up. You're just walking the dog, can't be bothered. But when you're getting out of your comfort zone, right, it's only natural. So when you start to realize that that voice, it's there for a reason. It wants to protect you, believe it or not. So start noticing it, right? It never goes away completely, but we just can diffuse it more quickly. And one of the ways is one, notice it. And then when you recognize, okay, I know why you're here, and I still get to choose in this moment to forgive myself, be gentle and compassionate, you know, maybe recognize, well, no wonder I couldn't get all of this done today. Ideally, I would have, but I didn't realize that, oh my gosh, my son had to pick them up from school cuz they weren't feeling well. Um, maybe I didn't get the full night's sleep that I was supposed to. So, hey, my my 100% today is really more about a 75. So, can I forgive myself? Can I give myself a little grace that maybe I was working on 75% in my tank? There were some unexpected um, you know, circumstances that came up and so I'm going to give myself permission to recommmit tomorrow, get back on the horse. same situation but now by noticing when it that voice shows up letting it know I know why you're here no judgment right offering yourself that compassion and then okay and even maybe at that point okay what can I gain from this there might be a there is a lesson here and as I'm talking to you as I mentioned um I have a book it's a 90-day journal I literally kind just took you through the process to a certain extent because there's a morning routine that starts with gratitude. So even in that moment, what can I be grateful for? Okay, you can get all those things done, but what can I be grateful for that either I completed or how I impacted someone? Cuz sometimes you focus so much on the doing that maybe I made someone smile today that was having a rough one, right? That wasn't on my to-do list. But in that moment, grabbing on to those glimmers in the day that I can be grateful for that can just literally cut that voice in a minute. Right? Or right now it gives me that spaciousness. We could talk about the neuroscience, get you from the amygdala back to the precortex where I can start critically thinking again and get perspective because that's a big part of forgiveness. You can get some perspective on things and recognize, hey, I can be grateful for what I did complete. I can forgive myself for what I didn't and recommmit tomorrow. I can get perspective and see, hey, there were some things going on, right? I didn't get enough sleep. I didn't realize my son I was going to have to pick him up for school today. So that's why I can end my day right in this place of compassion, love and empathy for myself. So if someone is listening and you know did not have betrayal, grief or anything like on their mind that they needed to forgive but now is listening and thinking okay so what might I have that I need to forgive in order to move forward. How do you start recognizing that? Where do you start looking? Okay I love this because I remember having someone walk up walk up to me and say I I love your book. I didn't think I needed it originally. We have any like big grievance heavy grievances. Right. Right. Sometimes it just you you're living your life, everything seems fine. You know, nothing is off. Mhm. But you don't know what you don't know. Right. But what she realized was it was great for the little things cuz those little things, they start to pile up. Like just think about if you keep adding pebbles into your pocket, what's going to happen? Yeah. your pants are going to drop. Hello. Right. So, yeah, she noticed it was great for the everyday like hubby not, you know, packing the dishwasher properly or, you know, she's she she oversees a team at work. So, you know, all the little issues that she's dealing with with her employees, those things start to add up. So, just having a place daily cuz my journal is a daily habit forming journal. The idea is, you know, start with the small things and that you might even help build the muscle to work up to the bigger grievances in your life, right? But let's say you don't, it's still great to have a place daily to release and then gain perspective because it's also a mindfulness journey as well, right? Because every every day you time take time to reflect on where I did forgive, where I didn't, what might have gotten in the way, and what can I learn from this? Guess what? Guess again, guess who's getting the gold. Yeah, you are. Because you're getting this new level of growth and emotional intelligence and resilience every time you take a minute just to stop and reflect. your heart keeps opening up more and more, right? Versus feeling guarded and more restrained because of the things you haven't released on the daily. I guess it's all about ownership and who you know, it's up to you to make those steps. It's up to you to be stay empowered and not give away your power to other people to influence how you feel what your next step is going to be. So, I love the message. Good. May I May I give you a a visual? Yeah. Just to add on to what you said there because we don't want to glaze over that piece. That's a big part of what I teach in forgiveness is ownership. There's a difference between ownership and and taking responsibility and blame [clears throat] game. So again I want to make sure that that distinction is very clear when we say we want to we we when you have 100% ownership of your life you are free it's not saying I am taking the blame for everything that's not what we're saying but when you realize that in every situation you have agency get your power back as you said and so you're free to now make clear, more empowered decisions for your life and those around you. So, I always say when you're pointing at somebody else, how many fingers are pointing back at you? There's more. So, what happens is as long as we keep pointing at them, we're missing out on what we're supposed to get from the situation. And believe it or not, [clears throat] there's always something that we get to the gift that we get from every opportunity. And that is such an empowering message to know that, you know, somebody can make you feel uncomfortable, can make you feel sad because a situation doesn't play out the way you want. But it's always you always have agency and ownership to to decide how to respond to it instead of reacting to what's happening. Correct. So, Dion, what might be the smallest first step that someone can do after listening to this conversation? Maybe they identified something that they want to forgive, but they're not yet ready. That that's actually the key um question right before you can even get started. like you can't pass go unless you really search your heart to see if you're willing cuz that that is the key ingredient to forgiveness. Uh what we learned again growing up where your parents just told you forgive your brother. It's not true forgiveness, right? You actually have to be a willing participant. So first things first, search your heart. Are you even willing to begin the journey? I'm not even saying willing to forgive, just willing to begin the journey. And then if you are, then you can begin that forgiveness process. And you can do it alone, right? For example, maybe it is a forgiveness journal. Shameless plug, right? And just start start with gratitude. Start just priming your heart open because that's what forgiveness requires is a heart that's open, right? Um, start with curiosity. I know, right? How it felt in the moment, but start getting curious. were not again condoning what happened but like in my father's case I started getting curious recognizing well he's not well did he actually want to intentionally hurt my mom no right so maybe there's already another way to look at what happened perhaps it's another reason why maybe your parents never hugged you or loved you and didn't do the things they were supposed to do. Get curious. How is your motherthered? Again, we're not condoning what happened, but maybe they're doing the best they could with what they had at the time. Yeah. And if you understand their story, it's easier to understand the behavior because sometimes we it's very easy to judge people by the first things that we see or how we expect people to treat us. But it's by being curious and diving deeper that you really understand, okay, this person is a human too, has had his or her issues, maybe wasn't able to forgive, but that doesn't mean that I'm not able to forgive. Mhm. We all fall short. So we also can access the humanity, right, in everyone, right? Cuz none of us can walk this earth and say we didn't hurt somebody too, right? And how much we we appreciate the for Right. So yeah, I would start there. Dion, I would like you to talk directly to the person listening. What do you want them to take away from this conversation? Well, if you take nothing else, I have two things, right? What's I think the second one just it frees up some people, you know. Um, but if you take nothing else from this conversation today, forgiveness is for you. It's as simple as that. when you're ready, all the goodies you get when you forgive. So that's the one first thing. The second thing, and it touches on what we were we were talking about earlier on forgiveness and boundaries, right? And trust is that forgiveness requires one person, right? Perhaps this person's already passed away. That's the extreme case. and you're still alive here, but you're you're still holding on to all these heavy emotions. And to a certain extent, there's physical evidence to show there's all kinds of research. It is literally killing you, right? The cortisol levels are heightened, you know, on a on a sustained period of time. It affects your heart, your immune system, your digestive, you name it, right? Not to mention the mental impacts, right? Bipolar depression. And there's research to show John Hopkins University the through line is unforgiveness addictions. Right? So just keep that in mind. But back to the final my final thought forgiveness only requires one person. Reconciliation requires two. Right? It doesn't automatically mean that forgiveness always ends up wrapped in a bow. Right. Right. You might have to choose forgiveness for your own freedom and well-being. May never get that apology. They may never change. But for you to move forward and and live your highest and best version of yourself and life is why you choose forgiveness. Dion, where can people find you? Um, uh, my website is called Live Your Best Life for You. If you want to learn more about what I do, um, you can find me on Facebook, LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn at Dion Nichols Germaine. I am the chief forgiveness officer, so it's not hard to find me. And as well as Instagram, Dion, right? And I'll make sure I'll put everything in the show notes so people have all the links. And I want to thank you for taking time and having this conversation with me. Oh my gosh, it was an honor. I was joyfully anticipating this conversation with you, Luca. This was amazing. Thank you so much. I was too. And I wish you all the best with the work that you do. I think it's amazing. Um, and I look forward to seeing you in a new conversation. Yes, me too. And all the best to you. I wish you all the goodness that's to come. And to you listening, I hope this conversation sparked something in you. If someone came to mind while listening, share this conversation with them. We all need people to help us notice what we can't always see ourselves. And if you'd like to help me reach more people, I'd love for you to subscribe, like, or rate this episode. I'm Luca, and I look forward to seeing you in our next conversation. It's your life. You only have [music] one to live. Become who you know you can be. Take control of what's yours [music] and live with intention. Step by step. You were made for more. It all [music] your life, your story, your next move.